PODCAST QUESTIONS
Choose an animal that best represents the way you’re feeling today? Would you be able to give some background about yourself? What made you want to study criminality & law? What are the feminist principles? What would you miss from the patriarchal society if a matriarchal society was to be put into place? What would you do differently in terms of education in a matriarchal society? Do you think women’s anxiety would lessen in a matriarchal society? Do you prefer Margaret Thatcher or Aretha Franklin?
TRANSCRIPT
Frederique
So, tell me how are you today? And please choose an animal that represent(s) the way you feel and tell us why you chose this animal.
Lulu
Oh, thank you Frederique, honored to be here and thank you so much for inviting me on the podcast today. Yeah, it’s funny you said, choosing a sea animal because I’ve been… I’ve moved down to Cornwall a few months ago, and I’ve been trying to see a whale, that is local, for the last few days, and not seen it at all. But someone commented yesterday, “oh, we’ve only seen dolphins”, and I love dolphins so…
Frederique
Oh my gosh.
Lulu
I’d be happy with a dolphin.
Frederique
This is so nice. I actually have a ring with a dolphin today.
Lulu
Oh, do you? There you go… I used to have a dolphin ring when I was little actually and I had… not little but you know, kind of 12 or something and I adopted a dolphin called Salty you know, when you know contribute to their conservation and stuff so…
Frederique
Oh, wow.
Lulu
I would definitely say a dolphin because they, they live in pods, they’re very communicative, and they live for pleasure and joy as well, it’s a big part of being a dolphin, so…
Frederique
Oh yes. And do you know that this is one of, one of the few animals that have sex for pleasure?
Lulu
Exactly, that’s what, that’s what I was getting that in through the back door. In terms of pleasure and joy that when the other– only other mammal I think, aren’t they?
Frederique
Yes.
Lulu
I remember that on the pub quiz from my university days.
Frederique
Yeah. She’s really funny. Okay, so Lulu, Lulu Minns. Would you be able to give us a little background about you, please?
Lulu
Yeah, of course. I started my career as a criminal defense lawyer, and you know, can even go– well, I would say, I started really before that in terms of sociology and criminology, that’s what I studied at university.
Frederique
Oh, wow.
Lulu
And yeah so… that’s my background, and I studied law to do, to practice within the criminal justice system, it wasn’t to become a lawyer. I think that’s quite different to a lot of lawyers, I was very clear I wanted to work in the justice system. I often say I spent a lifetime studying human behaviour, why we do what we do, and I left that around six years ago, and started… I had a business, you know, off track in terms of the dating industry initially, and then found my way into coaching and that was something I’ve always done and really created a niche. I guess in code, it’s quite popular actually, coaching women, coaching women, it wasn’t when I started. It wasn’t a deliberate choice either, it was just that women come to me and seem to find a safe space where they can really share what’s blocking them from creating success on terms that actually feel good to them. So that’s become a real niche in terms of the social conditioning of women and how that prevents us from creating success differently.
Frederique
Oh yeah but one… I just wonder what makes (made) you study… is it criminality you said, and law?
Lulu
Yeah criminology and law.
Frederique
Criminology and law. What, what makes you… I mean I have an interest in that? This is so interesting.
Lulu
Yeah, I think the first, the first… And it’s weird, I actually thought you’re gonna ask me this question today, and… I, when I was, because it is relevant to what we’re talking about, when I was around 10 or 11, there was a case in the UK, the Bulger case. I don’t know if you remember where two boys who were 11, um, you know…
Frederique
Yes, yes.
Lulu
Yeah, a four year old, um, boy called James Bulger. So I was the same age as the two boys who committed that criminal offense.
Frederique
Okay.
Lulu
I remember that day at school like yesterday, and being very upset, and confused why children would do that to another child. And also…
Frederique
Of course.
Lulu
I also remember boys at school making a joke about it saying “oh that was me” you know, blah blah blah blah blah. And I think that really raised a question for me in terms of human behavior. What, why, why we behave as we do, and also in a roundabout way, why men can sometimes behave very differently to women because…
Frederique
Yes.
Lulu
…of the sense of humour around it for the boys. It was the least funny thing I had personally kind of ever heard. And, so yeah, I remember being really distracted at school that day.
Frederique
Did you have, did you have this case study? When you studied criminology at university.
Lulu
Did I, what, have a case study in terms of that case?
Frederique
Yes, that case, exactly.
Lulu
Yeah, I… funnily enough because I went to University of Manchester, I did meet a few people and who, you know, knew more about that case. I’ve read a fair bit about it. I also read a case about Mary Bell, who was…
Frederique
Oh yeah, Mary Bell. Oh yes, that was huge.
Lulu
Yeah, that was massive as well. So again, I think, you know, in terms of relevance to this podcast episode, even as a young woman or as a, as a child, I had a kind of deep insight, really, that, that a child would only ever do that to another child if something happened to them, because I knew I wouldn’t behave in that way. So I had a question of what, why would another child do that and what’s happened to them to, to make them do that kind of thing.
Frederique
Yes. And actually, actually, it does make sense because I love criminology and I follow… Yesterday night I was watching some domestic abuse cases and there’s one in particular that struck me. It was a young lady in Brazil, who had been killed by her husband, and there are the images of the murder. And, well, we won’t talk about that today, but perhaps it might be a good, a good topic for another podcast, actually, and all that to say that I’ve seen that, I’ve noticed that a lot of woman are being killed each year here, just in the UK, so we don’t even talk about worldwide… and I wonder what it would look, you know, look like if we had, if we were living in a matriarchal society. So, uhm, for you, what is a matriarchal way of life? What it looks like? What, what, how it feels?
Lulu
Yeah, I mean it’s definitely one where, you know, women are not abused and murdered by their partners, because I know that, that’s come up… in terms of our discussion… but it’s also one where women have more of a say in positions of leadership and, you know, I want to say the political agenda but actually find a political agenda, relatively patriarchal. So, you know, and there’s lots of women that feel that they can’t exist in that system and structure that already exists with it which is a real issue and problem, but I I see it as, you know, really a reintroduction of feminine principles.
Frederique
Okay, such as… such as… tell me.
Lulu
Such as… oh, there’s so many. I have a whole course on 24 principles of feminine success.
Frederique
Okay.
Lulu
And so, one of them is about the being, you know? A feminine principle is much more about being, who it is who we are being, whereas the masculine principle is about doing, and what it is that we are doing and we live in a society where we can see in terms of patriarchy that we live in a society that values the doing over the being. And that would be-
Frederique
I like that.
Lulu
Yeah, that’s a big problem and we actually, you know, get our value or our validation from other people about what it is that we do, instead of who it is, we are being, and there really needs to be a shift it’s not about getting rid of the doing. It’s not about getting rid of the masculine or, you know, patriarchy as a whole is about inviting the feminine and feminine principles back to the table and when I say that it’s quite from an energetic standpoint, we all have masculine-feminine energy.
Frederique
Yes, yes.
Lulu
But we live in a world of values the masculine energy and not the feminine and that to me is actually what patriarchy is. And, you know, all of us as individuals or certainly growing up in patriarchal Western societies embody a certain level of that and have to have a conversation with ourselves, where am I, where am I valuing the, the doing over the being here.
Frederique
Yes.
Lulu
That’s our. That’s our… it’s our default.
Frederique
So what I hear, is having balance between being and doing.
Lulu
Yeah, totally.
Frederique
Okay. I have… well, I picture a matriarchal society differently, perhaps, beacuse I’m very… concerned about children.
Lulu
Yeah.
Frederique
So to me, it would be about having a nurturing relationship with our environment, with children, with each other… And having this type of thinking where we agree as a community, rather than individually.
Lulu
Yeah.
Frederique
So that, the community has something to say, as well as the individual.
Lulu
Yeah, totally.
Frederique
That includes the individual.
Lulu
Yeah, and that, you know, connection is a very feminine principle, again, of how we’re all connected to each other, and the planet that we live on is called Mother Earth for a reason. And, and, you know, we feel that, and I know we’ve talked about this before, in our, in our cycles, we feel that more when we’re hormonal, which can be why we’re so ratty with certain things, because we almost can’t disconnect from how connected we are to each other and, and, you know, there is the separation and the disconnection is quite a masculine principle that, that does have its benefits when, for example, in science, it’s been very helpful for us to disconnect things to understand how they work.
Frederique
Uh-huh.
Lulu
And, you know, in terms of the human body, to like, kind of pull that apart. It’s not my thing, but, you know, to pull the heart out and look at how that works as a separate entity, but what, what, you know, in medical sciences starting to move to a more holistic approach forgets to do is, go “actually how does that kind of work as a whole piece”, you know? We all know when we go to the doctor and stuff is, that’s the thing that’s wrong with you, and they don’t tend to look at the the connective thing and I know only relatively recently that they really understood the connective tissue that we have in the body, and how that has to transmit all the information around our body. Whereas when they used to do autopsies they just take that all the connective tissue and chuck it away.
Frederique
Okay.
Lulu
Very masculine and patriarchal.
Frederique
Yeah, like we don’t need that!
Lulu
And women I think, we’re better at that. But we, we find it very hard to disconnect sometimes when we need to, you know, there’s… I can’t remember the guy… is it Ken Robinson or something? Who, you know, talks about… he did a great TED Talk which I can’t recall how it’s called, but about how when he finds an egg in the kitchen, that’s all he can do. And you know, because that’s his sole focus whereas he’s trying to capture and looking after the kid you know because we connected that’s very feminine energy.
But, you know, I’m very much of… the both of these principals, have their uses is for how these-
Frederique
Yes.
Lulu
balances you say, and work as a whole.
Frederique
Yes, and, and being able to acknowledge your, your feelings about something also.
Lulu
Yeah.
Frederique
I find it very interesting. And, um, so what would you miss from the patriarchal society if a matriarchal way of life was to be adopted tomorrow?
Lulu
Well, I was initially gonna say nothing, but I thought that’s not quite true. But you know, one thing I would miss but it seems I really don’t like in terms of systems, structure, discipline, rigid, you know, things that are rigid. I don’t like any of that stuff, but there is some degree of system and structure and rigid, you know, discipline rules that we kind of need, not in the way that it is, but, um, you know, if, if that’s just how I see patriarchy. It’s very like, systematic, and that is not great but we do need some level of systems. We do need some levels of discipline.
Frederique
Organization, more than disciplines.
Lulu
Yeah, organization.
Frederique
Yeah. Because when you think of it, we’re living in boxes, so you… as you said earlier, regarding the human body, so they are the heart, the brain and then… But there’s, you know, you need some kind of connections in, in between. So I think this would help also to have some kind of organization, but also have the ability to feel, and to be yourself without having to explain constantly “oh, I’m feeling this, I’m feeling that. I would like to do, to, to experience this because…”, you know, etc, etc. What I feel is missing also, is the fact that women need to have a say without being judged.
Lulu
Yeah, women need to have a say without being judged. Women need to have a say without being told to tone it down, or that they’re being aggressive or all sorts of, you know, comments. And I know my background as a litigator and a lawyer when I was in court, you know, frequently, and I had to, you know, bring a certain degree of force with what I was saying because particular when I started, I was obviously a young female as well. So, you know, not, not so taken seriously, but I was definitely, you know, told to tone it down or you’re being too aggressive or… but the alternative of that was to be totally ignored and not taken seriously and that was not an option that was available to me and it wasn’t one that I wanted to take but ultimately the consequence for women in those particular fields in very patriarchal institutions systems and structures, are that they burn out, they become exhausted of having to bring a certain degree of energy and they leave, you know?
Frederique
Been there… Felt it.
Lulu
Going through without it. And they’re not they’re not getting to the partnership because they leave before they get there.
Frederique
Yes. So actually talking about education, what would you do differently in terms of education if we were living in a matriarchal society?
Lulu
There will be much more freedom of flow, much more connection to nature, much more space for intuition, for empathy, for connecting with each other, for, you know, for being, as I said, over the doing, because the education system based around patriarchal system, but it was also, you know, within that… corresponds with- when factories, you know? Education, trains a lot of people to go and sit in a factory. And also, the system- and even if you think about how the classrooms are set out, it’s all sitting next to each other, you have rigid lunch breaks, you know…
Frederique
Yes.
Lulu
…you can’t have water in case you spilt it on your book. You know, it’s preparing you for a workforce, which is not matriarchal for sure. But… and it’s not where we’re going in the future because, well, as we know, this year everyone’s been working from home.
Frederique
Prison like system.
Lulu
Yeah! And people don’t know what to do. Bear in mind I work with women who are leaving those patriarchal jobs, starting their businesses of significance, or some say quite a bit in, but talking about the start and the people that start, when they don’t have those systems and structures, and that confinement, they don’t know, they don’t know what to do with that freedom, and that flow, and that intuition.
Frederique
Yeah. That’s, that’s, um… that is interesting because I feel like a lot of women need, and they are craving for it so… I don’t know. Um, I guess we will have to…
Lulu
Yeah, craving it, but not always knowing what to do when they have it.
Frederique
Mm, hmm.
Lulu
Or not always trusting it.
Frederique
Or not trusting it. This is so true. Um, what do you think women… let’s see, do you think women’s anxiety would, would lessen if we were living in a matriarchal society? I personally think yes, but…
Lulu
Yeah, you wanna explain your yes, or do you want me to…?
Frederique
Oh, I would like to hear yours first.
Lulu
Yeah. Yes and no. Yes, because, you know, there would be things in place that we… again the thing I’ve come across a lot is women when they’re lacking confidence in certain situations, it’s because they’re trying to do it in a way that they’ve been conditioned, that’s quite patriarchal and not, and not necessarily in a way that feels good to them. So, yes, because we could create more things that feel good to us in the way that we like to do things. So, I host retreats as you know, and that’s an amazing way for women to learn and collaborate and connect, because that’s the way, the way we are. We don’t necessary… it’s not that women don’t talk to be listened to. We are very conversational, and…
Frederique
Oh, yeah.
Lulu
Yeah, we like dialogue and we learn in that way and again, you think traditional workplace, you know, it’s about “oh, it’s my speech!” and, you know, and then for 20 minutes and I’ve got a, you know, I don’t think… it’s not all, but many women necessarily resonate with that. So there’s an element of… Yes.
But there’s an element of, we create society. Each of us on an individual level. So we can’t always think of what’s gonna change on the outside so we’ll change on the inside. We have to think about how we change on the inside so it changes on the outside, and there is a saying, it might be Rebecca Campbell who wrote “Light is the new black”, that she talks about we have to heal the patriarchy in ourselves first.
Frederique
Oh, this is so true. This is so true. Yeah, it feels like… clear. Um, I actually, actually feel like… Earlier I had a meeting today, and there were a lot of conversations around nature, and how nature is so important for woman and I’ve noticed that I love to hear about other people stories. It’s such a pleasure to be able to just listen and imagine what the other person is bringing on the table and have your own creativity, I mean… flow?
Lulu
Yeah.
Frederique
I don’t think that if that makes sense.
Lulu
Mm hmm.
Frederique
And it flows, as if you are connected. And I feel that, that makes me less anxious.
Lulu
Yeah…
Frederique
And more… and I feel actually more visible, just by listening. This is so strange because normally you should say, “okay I’m not, I, I am invisible because I don’t speak, I don’t, you know, voice my opinion”, but actually, to me it’s about listening also. Listening to what others, you know, have to say, and how they feel and have different point of views coming, you know, in sharing. Sharing, that’s it! I was…
Lulu
Yeah, and I think, you know, I think so many people have found, you know, we’ve been forced against our will, some people, but not for me you know it’s been since I left the legal world six years ago. It’s been really interesting to watch in terms of the pandemic and people being forced to work from home, etc, how many people have found that their anxiety, etc, have lessened when they are in nature.
Frederique
Uh huh.
Lulu
When, when they’re going for long walks because we can move away from the external of what is happening because often, you know, with technology it brings it right into our living rooms, etc, whereas, you know, it’s not in our immediate thing right now, and we have to be very wary of that. And… I don’t know if you’re familiar with the poems of Mary Oliver?
Frederique
No.
Lulu
Definitely check them out. You will love them. She’s got a poem, I can’t remem which one it’s called, but she talks about going down the beach, she’s feeling depressed, you know, it’s a bad day, and she talks to the sea, and the sea says “excuse me I have work to do”. And I just love that, because nature is always perfect.
Frederique
You feel good in nature. I mean, I feel good in nature.
Lulu
Yeah, we do, we take a breath, we relax, we connect with our, our deeper self, our higher wisdom, etc, which is connected to lots…
Frederique
Yeah.
Lulu
We get out of our heads. It’s our heads that, that create a lot of feelings and anxiety. You know, when when we’re stuck at home or behind four walls and looking computer screens. It’s massively elevated. So, you know, and I do think, you know, matriarchal society, nature is a big part of that. Historically, women were gatekeepers of nature and…
Frederique
Yes!
Lulu
Yeah, the ownership, the ownership of land coincided with the ownership of women.
Frederique
And medicines. And, you know, giving… assisting women who were giving birth. Yeah, all these, those, you know, activities were… How can I say it, taking (taken) in charge…?
Lulu
Yeah.
Frederique
…by women, and celebrating this, I think, is missing here.
Lulu
Yeah.
Frederique
Or now.
Lulu
Absolutely. Well, we only have to look in society, how and it is changing, and it really is over the last couple of years from when I started doing this work, you know, how women are disconnected from their cycles and their menstrual cycles. You know, we have that nature running through us every single month. And we’ve been conditioned. This is the patriarchy within us, right?
Frederique
Yes.
Lulu
We begin to look at that as a negative, and an unhelpful thing that makes us weaker and, which is the-
Frederique 38:11
And something that, that does not exist. Because some of us suffer, you know? There are women who really suffer every month.
Lulu
Yeah.
Frederique
Because of their periods and they can’t even take a day off, or… because of this. It’s not even-
Lulu
No, and I think every single woman should have one day off, she can take off a month totally at her discretion and, you know what, every single bloke as well.
Frederique
Me too.
Lulu
Just take it off, because then that’s actually equality, and, you know, because women are invisible in the business world and many patriarchal, you know, institutions, we have to do it the way that guys are doing it. So what, why doesn’t- we just start… Why don’t we open the door for women and then that opens the door for guys? You know if they want to spend the day with their kids or whatever it might be.
Frederique
Yes!
Lulu
That one day that we can throw in whenever we want.
Frederique
Exactly. That would be so nice.
Lulu
You know, I have a job, but I am the boss, but you know.
Frederique
Anyway, um, my last question for today would be, um… So, I was watching a podcast with Jordan Peterson and… I think it was Jordan? And he was saying that matriarchal society, do not exist. What do you think?
Lulu
I think it’s rubbish, you know? Women have been wiped out of the history books, so we have, you know- and I’ll tell you what? This is a big cause of depression, anxiety women and I post about it on Mental Health Day. Really and we’re at a real critical point now of us rediscovering our heritage, and our narrative as women, because it does exist. It’s just that patriarchy has wiped it out, you know, for example, in spirituality, you know, religious texts, etc, Mary Magdalene; totally wiped out, or depicted as potentially even a prostitute in parts.
Frederique
Mm hmm. Yeah.
Lulu
And rumour has it, you know…?
Frederique
That she was, she might be the… Jesus’s wife. Can you imagine Jesus’s wife being a prostitute?
Lulu
Yeah, exactly, and even more than that. Not even Jesus’s wife, I’ve heard, and I know some incredible writers and experts within this and it is, you know, it’s definitely on my list to go deeper with, with that- particularly ’cause I used to upset my religious studies teachers at school because I always had something to say about it, because there’s something missing for me, with all of it, and it was, and I kind of articulated it then, but it was very much that female-feminine narrative, and that I’ve heard, Mary Magdalene, apparently bankrolled Jesus.
Frederique
Wow…
Lulu
And his, you know, plight in spiritual quest of teaching what he was teaching, she was actually a massive advocate of creating wealth and supporting that movement, and was a much bigger disciple than the Bible was ever, you know… believe that or not, but I think what we can all agree, and I’m even noticing now you know when you watch Netflix, that you can tell when something’s been written by a woman and it’s really great to see, and I can’t remember which program it is, but one of them, you know, they were drinking orange wine because they were menopausal, or something.
Frederique
Okay.
Lulu
Never seen that 20 years ago.
Frederique
No.
Lulu
And it’s that for us as women, you know, we’ve grown up, where everything has been created and written by men, and to deny that that’s the reality is crazy, because it absolutely is, and it’s scary that we haven’t even seen that ourselves growing up at various points, because that’s just how things were.
Frederique
Yes. The simple fact, the simple fact that you don’t see a woman having a long career, I mean, even as an actress. Men can have a lifelong career, playing all kinds of different type of plays, movies, anything. Women however, I don’t know, I’m, sometimes I just think that there is, is… First it’s unfair. and second, why would you treat your mother like that?
Lulu
Yeah, yeah, well when women get written off a certain age you know but again…
Frederique
Yeah!
Lulu
And, you know, there are women that are really leading a path with that. But you know, I, many Hollywood- I was gonna say many Hollywood actresses I know, I don’t know any but, you know, would have felt that they were massively cast off, you know, when they were no longer deemed hot enough for the roles and, you know, all of that.
Frederique
Or young enough… Even Marilyn Monroe. After she turned, I think, 30, she was considered as too old and, if you see her when- just before her death, there is a movie that she she, she recorded but never came out and actually she was beautiful. She was wonderful, beautiful, and they just treated her like she was like, nothing, nothing.
Lulu
And it’s that, you know, when you think of magazines that we used to read from a young age…
Frederique
Oh, yeah…
Lulu
it wasn’t about careers for women, it was all about how to please boys or catch boys or sexually please them.
Frederique
Yes!
Lulu
About how we looked, you know, all of that kind of stuff and again, it’s great to see, you know, it is changing and I think that’s what’s really important to remember, and I think it’s really important to include men in the conversation, as well.
Frederique
As well.
Lulu
And for them, I love the Mary Wallenstein, Wallenstein’s quote of, “I don’t want women to have power over men, I just want them to have power over themselves” and that is, us really undoing the conditioning where we’re not in power of ourselves, where we’re giving our power away to others.
Frederique
Yes.
Lulu
That’s what we’ve been conditioned to do. So it’s not about being hard on ourselves for that. It’s really just about noticing and changing and rewiring it, and, and you know, including the men that are so supportive of us doing that, because there are many.
Frederique
Stay in your power woman. Okay, so the last bit for today, very last bit because I said earlier that that was the last question, but actually I have another, another game to play with Lulu today. This is our closing… I would like to thank you, first for coming today, and to give me the opportunity to have a chat with you regarding this subject that is, to me, very touching, and personal as a woman, and… yeah. Can you please answer to the following… according to your best ability. Margaret Thatcher, or Aretha Franklin?
Lulu
Aretha Franklin, every time.
Frederique
Madrid, or Tokyo?
Lulu
Tokyo!
Frederique
Okay. Grand Canyon, or a safari?
Lulu
Safari, because I’ve been to the Canyon. I loved it, but I haven’t been on a safari, so I’d love to see.
Frederique
Oh, sweet.
Lulu
It’s a very long driving after that without any food but, you know, you can’t really-
Frederique
Really?
Lulu
Yeah.
Frederique
Oh wow, I would love to go one day. We’ll never know, fingers crossed.
Lulu
Yeah.
Frederique
Chocolate cake, or ice cream?
Lulu
I was gonna say can I have both? But, um…
Frederique
Yes, yes!
Lulu
They go together.
Frederique
This is so funny. Okay, thank you so much, Lulu. Thanks for coming today, and you already know my audience, I love you more and please stay connected, we have more episodes to come fairly soon. Bye.
Lulu
Bye. Thanks so much for having me.
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